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Has the deal been done to scrap the 50p rate?

March 6th, 2012

What’ll be the political fall-out?

All the signs are that a deal has been done by the coalition partners to scrap the 50p tax rate and that there’ll be some form of mansion tax. It’s suggested that the latter might be in the form of more council tax bands at the top for the most expensive dwellings.

Already Ed Miliband has started attacking the plan saying that the new property tax, whatever its called, shouldn’t be used “as an excuse” to abandon the 50p rate which was first introduced in the closing months of the Labour government.

There’s a developing argument for saying that the 50p rate can lead to the overall tax take being lower because those at the very top can find ways of legally avoiding it. Abandoning the rate would, if that is indeed the case, lead to more money coming in.

This looks as though it will be the defining split between Labour and the coalition.

The idea of the rich apparently being treated in this way is going to be a hard sell and a possible easy target for Labour.

I’m not sure, however, that the party’s main spokesman are up to the task of exploiting it. The shadow chief treasury secretary, Rachel Reeves, was less than convincing on the point during her Question Time appearance last Thursday. She has a diction issue – a bit like Ed Miliband – which makes it harder for her to get her points across.

@MikeSmithsonOGH




  • Sunil Prasannan

     Is that accurate? Others MORE than Tories????

  • The Screaming Eagles

    The Times’ football correspondent at the Birmingham v Chelsea has just posted this

    “Chelsea fans at Birmingham singing “F*** off Benitez, we don’t want you here” and chanting for Mourinho”. 

  • Devo Max

    Neither of them English.

  • Richard Tyndall

    I don’t think it would be a problem at all politically if it is set at that sort of level, or even at £1.5 million. 

    But if they use the changes as an opportunity to start increasing taxes on house from 500K upwards as has been suggested then I suspect there will be alot of very unhappy people in the SE and that will certainly impact politically.

  • Sunil Prasannan

    I got 10/10 too – those were easy, even for a scientist :)

  • Next

    Historical dates, 7/10.

    Not bad for a multiple-guess quiz.

  • Marquee Mark

    Not as much as it will have made Boris LOL!

  • http://www.youtube.com/ajs41#p/p Andy JS

    I remember Teletext used to have a page for voting intentions at one time. When the Tories were in power Labour used to have massive leads and vice versa.

  • Plato

    It didn’t upset me – I was disappointed.

    We all have our foibles and hobby-horses. As you will perhaps have noticed – I quite regularly Like your posts despite us sharing different spaces on a number of issues.

  • http://scottish-independence.blogspot.com/ Stuart Dickson

    Tories wetting their knickers over that daft Harris poll. Well, here’s the Scottish split. Have a good laugh.

    Another party 41%
    Lab 22%
    Con 19%
    LD 2%

    I wonder what “another party” they can mean?

  • The Screaming Eagles

    Looks the 33% is made up of 19% Don’t knows. 

    If I could be arsed, I’d re-percentage the Harris poll without the don’t knows, but that would be the epitome of floccinaucinihilipilification.

  • Plato

    I used to ‘watch’ Teletext more than the TV – and was for a time nerdishly knowledgeable about football league tables despite never watching a game.

    It had a wonderful simplicity to its format.

  • http://www.youtube.com/ajs41#p/p Andy JS
  • Anonymous

    Back again! Whilst I was doing my latest sowings this afternoon it occurred to me how offensive the idea of replacing the 50p rate of income tax is with a Mansion Tax or Council tax band version of it.

    Now the issue with asset taxes is they punish individuals for changes in the market value that are out of their control particular those who bought decades ago and no longer necessarily have a large income. So consequently if Osborne brings in a Mansion tax or equivalent in council tax banding those on high incomes affected (who will have their income increased because of the scrapping of the 50p income tax rates) will be able to pay but those on lower incomes who still have high value property might not and perhaps will have to sell their properties.

    From that one can conclude that the social message from the Liberal Conservative coalition is that only rich people are allowed big expensive houses. How very elitist of them!

    I realised that liberals have always hankered after a supreme elitist status but I hadn’t realised they were that intent on imposing it.

    I wonder what the gang of four’s response to concerns about this will be?

    Let Them Rent Bedsits ????

  • Sunil Prasannan

     UKIP?
    BNP?
    SSP?
    SocLab?
    :)

  • The Screaming Eagles

    I really do hope Arsenal win the Champions League this season, Wenger deserves this.

  • DavidL

    3-0! this is incredible.

  • http://aloadofoldstodge.blogspot.com Stodge

    Evening all :)

    The Harris poll was featured in yesterday morning’s Metro and I’m surprised it’s only now filtering through.

    On the more substantive, it’s the old story with tax – the losers will jump up and down and make a lot of noise and the winners won’t. When you try to tax the wealthy, it becomes clear how much more access to media and influence said wealth provides. Column after column railing against te revised property tax proposals including one in the Standard tonight from Sir Malcolm Rifkind.

    This morning’s City AM was case in point of the special pleading of the wealthy. Allister Heath railed against the Tories and almost any form of increased taxation.

    It’s clear the anti-Coalition Conservative line is now “cut taxes to boost growth” but while there’s a sop on personal allowances, it’s not about cutting the taxes of the many but the few.

    The property tax proposal lays bare the failing of successive Conservative and Labour Governments to properly work the Council Tax reflecting changes in property values. The valuations are stuck in a 1991 time warp but the rest of the world has moved on.

  • http://www.youtube.com/ajs41#p/p Andy JS

    I lost some money last week when Santorum failed to win Michigan. Decided to try to recoup some of those losses by betting on Romney in Tennessee today but I’m not particularly confident!

  • The Screaming Eagles

    This is like Istanbul all over again.

  • http://www.youtube.com/ajs41#p/p Andy JS

    The great thing is that Ceefax is still available online – at least for a few more months.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Paul-Barker/1546990341 Paul Barker

    It looks even dafter if you do
    con              44%
    lab               21%
    libdem          17%
    which I suppose tells us that con voters are the most confident & libdems the least.

  • http://www.youtube.com/ajs41#p/p Andy JS

    “Two Murdoch journalists in apparent suicide bids”:

    http://uk.news.yahoo.com/two-murdoch-journalists-apparent-suicide-bids-194711969.html

  • http://www.youtube.com/ajs41#p/p Andy JS
  • tim

    Could any English football fan put forward an argument why, if the appointment of the next England manager is not to be made until May, they would not ask Wenger to manage the team through the European Championship, then make a permanent appointtment afterwards?

    I cant see anything, besides his nationality,that Redknapp could put on his CV which would justify his advancement for that six week period over Wenger (or Ferguson)

  • TubOfLard

    Brazil ‘overtakes UK’s economy

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/busi...

    Stuart,You seem to state that with glee, but remember Brazii’s population is four times the size of the U.K.

    I really wouldn’t go there as Scotland’s GDP (c. $ 225b) is still dwarfed by such booming economies as Greece (c.$ 300b) and Portugal (c.$250b), and that is including the oil.

  • Anonymous

     Well you can argue that until your blue in the face but it doesn’t change the fact that asset taxes are intrinsically unfair as they do not consider people’s ability to pay. So of course what you get is some poor old widow whose is living in the same house she did 40 years ago when the area in which she lives was relatively run down and unpopular who finds she no longer can afford to live there because the Liberal Democrats and their Liberal Conservatives lapdogs want to tax her because of the size of her house.

    Effectively what they are saying is that only the rich should live in big houses.Is what is so offensive about all asset taxes! They all should be replaced

  • The Screaming Eagles

    Harry Redknapp has won one top flight trophy in nearly 30 years of management, his appointment would be like Kevin Keegan all over again, except without the dodgy hair style.

    Sadly Wenger won’t take the England job, as he’s on record he couldn’t manage any other country except France or a developing football nation. 

    Looks like we’re stuck with Stuart Pearce until the summer then Roy Hodgson takes over in July.

    The best laugh I’ve had in ages was Pep Guardiola as next England Manager, seriously would you choose to manage Andy Carroll over Lionel Messi?

    (Although to be fair to PfP he backed Guardiola at 190/1 and he’s now down to 7/2)

  • The Twisted Fire Stopper

    I’d agree about Wenger for the Euros, I can’t agree about Fergie, I just have an irrational hatred of the man!
    For the life of me, I can’t understand the rush to appoint Redknapp. He hasn’t achieved enough in his long career, and there really isn’t any outstanding English candidates. I’d actually quite like O’Neil to have a crack at it.

  • tim

    The FA should not appoint a permanent manager before the European Championships, they should employ Wenger, or Ferguson or at a push Hiddink, all of whom are better managers than any English alternative.
    if they want to appoint Redknapp after that then so be it.

  • moses

    Nope… Daily Mail and it I suppose it has to be correct as labour probably and rightly would have a fit otherwise

  • The Screaming Eagles

    I’d love to see Martin O’Neill as England Manager, but he seems very happy (and doing well) at Sunderland.

  • Marquee Mark

    Any body watch The Nazi Titanic? A truly staggering denouement.

  • The Screaming Eagles

    Not a good headline in the Times

    Jamie Oliver: Coalition killing Britons with health policies

  • MrsB

    FPT for SeanT

    Not quite what I expected but I got there in the end.

  • MrsB

    It was so far OTT I assumed he was joking.

  • http://scottish-independence.blogspot.com/ Stuart Dickson

    I’m trying to work out how a straight copy n paste of a headline, combined with a bare url, can be construed as me “stating with glee”. You read an awful lot in to things.

  • Anonymous

    I wasn’t blaming immigrants. I would not blame anyone for behaving rationally in their own or their families best interests. I do however blame governments. 

  • The Screaming Eagles

    Looks like Sarkozy is desperate, he’s courting the NF vote.

    http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/9334dc5e-67a8-11e1-978e-00144feabdc0.html#axzz1oNAhFPM5 

  • MrsB

    What about if they inherited their house?

    Just asking.

  • MrsB

    I think you should test it on Ed Balls, personally.

  • http://scottish-independence.blogspot.com/ Stuart Dickson

    2012 Presidential Race Is ‘the Worst I’ve Ever Seen,’ Barbara Bush Says

    http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/03/05/barbara-bush-2012-is-the-worst-campaign-ive-ever-seen/

  • tim

    Blaming Govt for an ageing population.
    Interesting concept.

  • Anonymous

    You are a trial sometimes Tim. 
    I blame governments for allowing practically uncontrolled immigration into a country that is already overcrowded. as I suspect you knew. I’ve heard the arguments about aging populations, I don’t buy them, perhaps another night we will discuss it. 

  • http://scottish-independence.blogspot.com/ Stuart Dickson

    ‘Boundary changes: Lib Dems oppose nearly a third of new constituencies’
    - Documents show party members unhappy at plans for new electoral boundaries in England, raising prospect of rebellion

    … In the most strongly worded objections, from the West Midlands region, party members describe the Boundary Commission for England proposals as “schizophrenic, unnecessary and haphazard”.

    The Lib Dem response is revealed among 25,000 documents released on Tuesday onto the Boundary Commission website as part of their ongoing review, designed to reduce the number of English MPs from 533 to 502.

    … In the West Midlands the party wants changes to 30 of the 54 proposed boundaries, in the north-west to 46 out of the 68 new seats.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2012/mar/06/boundary-changes-liberal-democrats-constituencies

  • MrsB

    I think everyone has got overexcited about the words “mansion tax”.  Think of it as a few more bands on the Council Tax.

    I just wish governments would tell people more robustly that you can’t have services without having taxes.  Somebody has to pay them.  And everybody – no matter how well off they are – always thinks they are unfairly treated.

  • Anonymous

    Well it must have been only a matter of time before someone thought it all a bit much.

  • The Screaming Eagles

    Not aimed at you personally Stuart, but I really hate it when mental illnesses are used as insults. 

  • Richard Tyndall

    Evening MrsB

    Not sure if you are reading down the thread in which case you may already have seen my answer to that.

    Firstly of course if you inherit a house at even half the value of the proposed mansion tax then you pay inheritance tax at 40%.

    But more to the point, if it is absolutely necessary to raise extra taxes (and of course I prefer slashing spending but that is another debate) then a better and fairer way to do it would be with an extension of capital gains tax to the unearned portion of house sales or at a pinch to the full value if you are so minded.

    Anything is better than charging tax on the nominal value of an asset that is generating no income.

  • Charles

     You forget that he originally proposed £1m and then hastily increased it when he realised the implications for his constituency…

  • Anonymous

    Any road, earlier, I went looking for Odds for Stella Creasey for the next Labour Leader. I was hoping for something like Mike’s Obama triumph, (Which is not widely-known due to Mike’s coyness). 
    Best available is 25-1 so clearly she has already been spotted. Still might consider.
    My interest comes from anecdotal evidence only (Her constituency is not a million miles from me) but I am persuaded. 

  • Anonymous

    Yes, but millions of Brazilians still live in shanty towns and their GDP per capita is still well below ours. The only real way to judge the strength of a nation’s economy is GDP per capita, GDP (all things being equal) reflects population size, for example, as the world’s largest nation by population China should logically have the world’s largest economy, the only reason it has not is because of communism. As a top ten economy, we still punch well above our weight based on our population, where we are around top 30 globally rather than top 10!

  • Anonymous

    I did almost the opposite. Bet on Mitt to win Michigan last week, and hoping Santo wins Ohio tonight as I have a small wager on him to win that state!!

  • Next

    I don’t think anyone has a problem with paying for services.

    However, quite a few people have problems with the government p1551ng money up the wall to buy votes and massage their egos. Not to mention paying for those who want something for nothing.

  • http://scottish-independence.blogspot.com/ Stuart Dickson

    That is something you’d have to take up with the English Liberal Democrats, not me.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_Democrats_in_England

  • Anonymous

    Of course the other consideration about this Mansion tax concept is how stupidly self-destructive it could be. Looking at the regional vote share figures the Libdems are at their strongest in London and the South. Where is this going to hit the most London and the South.

    Is George Osborne seriously thinking of sabotaging Boris’s chances of beating Ken by imposing an additional property tax on thousands of Londoners weeks before the Mayoral Election. Such a plan seems incredibly stupid to me!

    Perhaps the budget headline will be ‘Osborne shoots Nick and Boris before doing the decent thing and shooting himself (as the head election strategist)?’

    Furthermore on this issue how is it that its alright to own a ten bedroom house and estate in Scotland milking the CAP subsidies while you do it and likely not have to pay this tax whereas you might well have to pay it in a 4 bed family home in central London? Unless Osborne is extremely nuanced about it this could be as stupid a move as Brown’s scrapping of the 10p tax rate

  • The Screaming Eagles

    New thread

  • http://twitter.com/MorrisF1 Morris Dancer

    Good evening, everyone.

    MrsB, I’m not making the French Revolution mistake [after the King and Queen had their heads lopped off everyone else was a bit insignificant]. Balls, and later Brown, are for when the MD StarGun is perfected.

  • Charles

     So they reckon they are not getting those votes back post tuition fees I guess…makes sense…

  • http://twitter.com/MorrisF1 Morris Dancer

    The Conservatives opposed AV 100% as well, but they still went ahead with the referendum.

    Still, it’s easy to understand Lib Dem discomfort. They wanted a 150 seat reduction, so only getting 50 must be disappointing. That’s coalition.

  • Anonymous

    I quite like Barbara Bush but she is being a bit hypocritical. Remember Bush Snr and Willie Horton in 1988 or the attacks on Mccain for having an oriental adopted child or the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth? Barbara Bush herself stated what she thought of Geraldine Ferraro as ’Rhymes with Rich!’ Richard Nixon reputedly thought Bush Snr a wimp but liked Barbara, as he once said, in a typical backhanded Nixon compliment ’…now that Barbara, she’s REALLY vindictive!”

  • Anonymous

    New thread, but… you can watch the whole thing on youtube.

  • Anonymous

    ‘I really wouldn’t go there as Scotland’s GDP (c.$ 225b) is still dwarfed
    by such booming economies as Greece (c.$ 300b) and Portugal (c.$250b),
    and that is including the oil.’

    Cool, Scotland’s GDP in touching distance of countries with double its population.

  • Charles

    I don’t understand what all this obsession is with revaluation.

    You need a single baseline valuation – 1991 is fine, unless the house has been sold more recently.

    Use an average inflation rate to rebase until today’s valuation.

    Use that as the taxable value.

    Each year the taxable value is increased in line with inflation, unless the property is sold (when the market value is used) or improved (in which case it is assessed).

    Simples.

  • Anonymous

    Testing

  • TubOfLard

    hyufd,

    Agreed. It is all about GDP per capita.

    That is what I was explaining to Stuart Dickson. The GDPs are now virtually the same but Brazil’s population is 192 million compared with with our 62 million (Brazil is actually three times our size not four), so really the fact that Brazil has a bigger economy than us is virtually meaningless.

    Of course as GDP is compared in $s anyway, a change in the £/$ exchange rate can alter the picture significantly. 

    What I find so irratating about his post (albeit just a bare bones headline and link) is that that it may lead some to believe that Brazil is actually more prosperous than we are.

    Therefore taking his logic, although Scotland has higher GDP per capita than Greece or Portugal, the economies of each of these basket-case countries is still greater than Scotland’s (and they have no oil).  

    Maybe I am oversensitive because I see it as another of many rather snidey Nit post denigrating the United Kingdom.

  • TubOfLard

    ‘Cool, Scotland’s GDP in touching distance of countries with double its population.’

    Divvie,

    Yeah, compare yourselves to Greece and Portugal, a couple of former peasant economies, with little in the way of natural resources, that have only grown in the past twenty years on the basis of enormous EU handouts and borrowing large quantities of money from European Banks that it can’t pay back.

    Anyway the original comment was made by one of yours making the comment that Brazil had just overtaken the U.K despite having a population of three times the size, so you have made my point for me.

  • Anonymous

    Just catching up with the news today. Oh my aching sides, so while the political lobby spent days last week investigating what horse Cameron rode a few years ago while in Opposition. They still managed to miss this more up to date and pertinent political letter for a month? Maybe they all need to get off twitter and away from their desks for a few days and go out and actual try some investigative journalism. We might get a real political story in real time, who knows what might have happened if they had deployed that tactic a few years ago with the hacking scandal.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=532923572 Líam Pennington

    I asked this very same question somewhere else, and got the reply that it was a springboard for the locals. 

    Pretty desperate  stuff.