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Could the coalition collapse over Lords reform?

February 24th, 2012

What’ll happen if CON MPs block the move?

For the first time since the coalition was created in May 2010 I think that there’s a serious chance that it won’t survive the full five year term.

The rumblings from both sides are getting louder and the issue of Lords reform is emerging as the most dangerous area.

In the coalition agreement in May 2010 three main constitutional moves were agreed by the two parties. The first was the AV referendum. The second the reduction in the size of the commons with equalized constituency sizes and a fast track review process. The third was for the second chamber to be fully elected by PR.

It’s the latter that looks set to cause problems as James Forsyth wrote on the Speccie Coffee House blog

“Tory backbenchers are determined to stop this bill getting through the House of Commons. There are, I understand, already more than 81 MPs prepared to vote against it. This rebellion will not be made up of just the usual suspects; I’ve spoken to several MPs with pristine voting records who are prepared to defy the whip on this issue. The danger for the coalition is that the Liberal Democrats are indicating that they think Cameron is obligated to get his MPs to support this bill. Having got their MPs to vote for tuition fees and the like, they are unsympathetic to the argument that Tory MPs just won’t wear a second chamber elected by PR.”

If Forsyth is right then we are entering dangerous territory. If there is a Tory rebellion that stops the bill then the planned vote next year giving final approval to the new boundaries might be problematic. The main beneficiary in electoral terms is the blue team and without the changes it is hard to see how they could win an overall majority.

If a Tory rebellion blocked the key Lib Dem aspiration and part of the coalition agreement on the upper house then it is not hard to envisage a Lib Dem rebellion on the boundary vote.

Where would the coalition stand then?

@MikeSmithsonOGH




  • tim

    How are English teams doing at the moment?

  • Anonymous

    404 as long as SKy can show premier league darts —what a match last night -Phil Taylor averaging near 120.!

  • Anonymous

    437 no worse than the germans tim!! Although we are moving behind Italy and have been behind the’super two’ from Spain for some time

  • Socrates

    “I used to be a conservative and I watch these debates and I’m wondering, I don’t think I’ve changed, but it’s a little troubling sometimes when people are appealing to people’s fears and emotion rather than trying to get them to look over the horizon for a broader perspective and that’s kind of where we are.”

    –Jeb Bush

  • http://awkwardedmilibandmoments.tumblr.com/ Anorak

    OMG you’re right (not really).

    The UEFA League coefficient has the Premiership in second place in Europe at the moment, after 5 years at the top.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UEFA_league_coefficient

    Do you want another go, or are you going to give up gracefully?

  • http://tomknoxbooks.com SeanT

    If you really believe most Swiss – or Londoners  - object to minarets because they “might clash architecturally” with native building styles, then you are clearly MUCH stupider than I thought.

    It’s like claiming that opponents of the burqa want them banned because they don’t go well with jeans.

  • Anonymous

    Caroline Spelman’s son loses privacy injunction bid

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-17155918 

    Well that was worth all the legal fees….if it is the story I think it is, I really don’t know why she went down this route in the first place, it will only come out eventually and by doing this it is just building it all up into more than her son appears to be …censored..and an idiot. Hardly the first teenager to be.

    Better not say anymore as not lifted until 2nd March and still has ability to appeal.

  • http://twitter.com/JamesKelly James Kelly

    THE Plaid Cymru leadership campaign has taken a significant new turn with one of the party’s most respected figures urging tactical voting to stop Elin Jones being elected.

    Former MP Adam Price – widely seen as a future Plaid leader himself – is urging supporters of Lord Dafydd Elis-Thomas and Leanne Wood to give their second preference votes to each other’s favourite candidate.

    Ballot papers are due to start arriving at members’ homes today with the winner being declared on March 15…

    Mr Price takes the view that the party needs a fresh start, and opposes Elin Jones because he sees her as a “continuity” candidate who would adopt the same “safety first” approach as Ieuan Wyn Jones…

    “It is an old cliché in politics that the next election is always the most important ever in history. But this time the truism is actually true. Whatever the result of the forthcoming referendum in Scotland – and the signs point increasingly to a positive outcome – the relationships between the countries of these islands shall surely be transfigured in the few short years ahead. This is a decade of decision that will influence the future course of Welsh history.”

     http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/2012/02/24/adam-price-makes-tactical-voting-plea-for-plaid-cymru-leadership-election-91466-30395426/#ixzz1nJBDyvCA

  • Plato

     What would be interesting from the PB community is what factors influenced our political complexion.

    I’d definitely fall into the Winter of Discontent/Thatcher given my parents’ backgrounds/my age.

    Yet I also am a Blairite which is a pretty social democratic – and also very pissed off at what Gordon did to the country after a good [Ken Clark start].

  • http://twitter.com/JamesKelly James Kelly

    Plato, you may be a great many things, but you are not a social democrat.

  • Anonymous

    “I really don’t know why she went down this route in the
    first place”

    To protect her under age son from being used as a political pawn by an unscrupulous paper because of his mothers position in Government perhaps?

  • Moniker of Monza

    James, you may be a great many things , but you are not Scottish.

  • http://tomknoxbooks.com SeanT

    tim actually has a point here. Man Utd have fallen behing Barca and Real partly because they can’t sell their TV rights individually, like the Spanish teams, so the income gap is growing between the Spanish duo and everyone else.

    No one is sure what this Euro judgment means for the Premiership but it is by no means bound to be bad: it could mean four or five top English teams will make MORE money – as English soccer is so popular in Africa and Asia. The EPL might therefore get better – at the top.

    Meanwhile the lesser teams will suffer.

    But this judgment is also a bombshell for many other creative industries, including my own. AIUI, the judgment throws the whole idea of territorial ownership of copyright, and the sale thereby, into confusion….

    I suspect it may be fiercely resisted in many quarters. This game has a long way to go.

  • http://twitter.com/JamesKelly James Kelly

    “James, you may be a great many things , but you are not Scottish.”

    Oh you pupil you weave you sigh you cough.  Ha ha ha!

  • Anonymous

    I flirted with the libs/greens/SDP when young but my experiences at college – student union lefties voting to send our money to Chile and using the ‘normal democratic’ procedures to ensure it turned me definitely right wing.

    There was a vote where all the science students turned out and voted the proposal down so another vote was organised a week later when the science students couldn’t attend and voted the original proposal through.

    I started work just after Maggies victory, where the pay freeze was lifted and I really approved of her first term with all the things she did especially taking on the unions.

    I didn’t vote for the tories in her third term as I thought she’d gone a bit strange and lost the democratic mandate but have never voted labour.  I really liked the Spitting Image characetures from that period.

    Now settled as a Tory but not fanatical about it.

  • http://awkwardedmilibandmoments.tumblr.com/ Anorak

    I think the Barca/Real hegemony is so strong because they can simply steamroller the other Spanish clubs and hoover up the money. One of the best aspects of the Premiership is the fact that Manu, Liverpool, Chelsea, Arsenal (and probably Man C now) all compete at the highest level.

    We’re getting into detail here. My objection was to the demonstrably false assertion that “we aren’t competitive in Europe”. Reaching all those European finals over the last 15 years proves that to be incorrect.

    Are books copyrighted territorially within the EU? Or just between the EU and other places?

  • Anonymous

     On the other hand the SPL seems headed for the knackers yard. RFC appear to be getting closer to the point of no return and CFC will have no-one to play who can support high ticket prices. Is there a way out for either team ?

  • Anonymous

    Without getting into it…it depends a lot on how the story is written if that is strictly true or not. I’m sure the fact that he is a ministers son is relevant to the newspaper in question being interested in. 

    However, it could also be written as a piece about a promising 17 year old England rugby player …censored….is he just one example of a wider problem among teenagers, especially sportsmen / women?

  • Moniker of Monza

      “Be Britain still to Britain true, Amang ourself united; For never but by British hands maun British wrongs be righted!”
     You should try and integrate yourself by studying the national poet of your new host nation.

  • http://twitter.com/JamesKelly James Kelly

    “O, would, or I had seen the day
    That Treason thus could sell us,
    My auld grey head had lien in clay
    Wi’ Bruce and loyal Wallace!
    But pith and power, till my last hour
    I’ll mak this declaration :-
    ‘We’re bought and sold for English gold’–
    Such a parcel of rogues in a nation!”

    I must say those don’t instantly leap out at me as the words of one your fellow Brit Nats, Moniker, but who knows.

  • http://tomknoxbooks.com SeanT

    Very true. tim has some thing in his head about English football being shyte, despite the obvious evidence that it isn’t: the UEFA rankings, the money, the global popularity, none of it matters as he has convinced himself that the opposite is the case.

    I think it might be part of his white chav self loathing shtick, the same way he thinks all whites are racist, the same way he just hates and despises anything English. Dunno.

    Orwell skewered this loathsome kind of lefty decades ago:

    “In left-wing circles it is always felt that there is something slightly disgraceful in being an Englishman and that it is a duty to snigger at every English institution, from horse racing to suet puddings. ”

    http://www.k-1.com/Orwell/site/work/essays/lionunicorn.html 

    tim is a sad example that this disease persists. Pity him and move on.

  • Anonymous

    What turned me against the left wasn’t the policies the students espoused, but the people the left wing students were.

    Invariably they were the progeny of wealthy solicitors, barristers, academics, civil servants, judges, quangocrats etc. etc. etc.

    Most of them hadn’t been within five miles of a council house.

  • Anonymous

    He is well pitied..

  • Moniker of Monza

    ‘We are bought and sold for English gold’-Such a parcel of rogues in a nation!”
     A perfect description of Salmond’s disastrous relationship with the old RBS management.

  • Anonymous

    O/T After reading through some of my post I bl00dy well wish I could spell!

    I have no problem with drosphila melanogasta but can’t s[pel frut fly :-)

  • http://twitter.com/JamesKelly James Kelly

    Cinisello Balsamo, Lombardia, Italy    

  • http://tomknoxbooks.com SeanT

    Books are sold individually by territory and language within the EU and without (though there is a strange division of the English speaking world, where British publishers get the UK and everywhere else, and the Yank publishers get just America and Canada)

    The sale of foreign rights by territory and lingo is a major earner for people like me (indeed it’s the bulk of my income, my UK sales are solid but not spectacular)

    If something threatens this I would be v worried! But it’s all murky at the mo.

  • http://awkwardedmilibandmoments.tumblr.com/ Anorak

    “Pity him and move on.”

    No, no, no. I live in hope that he, and several others on this site will eventually change their ways. All this exposure to rationality, reality, common sense and all-round rightness must sink in eventually. Mustn’t it?

  • Anonymous

    Last night on QT there was a UKIP Liverpudlian MEP.

    It was really strange to hear something other than leftie ‘I’m a victim’ carping in a scouse accent! Sounded most peculiar.

  • Anonymous

     Perhaps he should be moved on.  Spamming is boorish.

  • tim

    Finals appearances over the last thirty years European Championships + World Cup

    Germany 6 + 5 = 11
    Italy 1+ 2 =3
    Spain 2+1 = 3
    France 2+2 =4
    Holland 1+2 = 3
    England 0+0 = 0

    Demonstrably crap.

    Club sides better, but in the most successful period in the seventies and eighties, full of Irish Scottish and Welsh players, and post Sky, full of European players.

    Countries like the Czech Republic and Croatia, despite having very little money by comparison have a better record than England at national level because they coach their players to pass the ball to each other from an early age.

    No amount of shirt sales in Singapore makes up for that.

  • http://awkwardedmilibandmoments.tumblr.com/ Anorak

    I must admit that my prejudices took a well-deserved knock.

    I missed the intros and assumed he was a union rep. I was very confused for a while. A little lesson in the dangers of presumption…

  • Moniker of Monza

    The ” We know where you live “ threat. From a know nothing.

  • http://twitter.com/JamesKelly James Kelly

    No, I was just wondering why you were googling your own name, that’s all.

  • Anonymous

    So it isn’t the amount of money you throw at a problem then, its how you spend it. And spending more money doesn’t necessarily produce better results.

    Careful Tim, you are turning Tory.

  • Anonymous

    Well there not even a partial consensus even within parties on reform let alone an absolute consensus. For it to be worth while it needs to be a sustainable solution, which doesn’t seem to be what is being offered. 

    Edit in reply to James Kelly.

  • http://tomknoxbooks.com SeanT

    I was talking about the EPL, as you know. So you talk about something else.

    You’re just an idiot, and an increasingly boring and bigoted idiot.

  • http://awkwardedmilibandmoments.tumblr.com/ Anorak

    Ah, the old “shifting goalposts” gambit; very apposite. England have been underachievers as a national team, no argument there.

    But just to refresh your selective memory, the discussion since the very beginning has been around national leagues and club football.

  • Socrates

    By clashing architecturally I’m not talking about the inherent aesthetics due to the angles or the colours not working. I mean that it culturally clashes with the rest of the landscape and looks out of place.

  • http://twitter.com/JamesKelly James Kelly

    “For it to be worth while it needs to be a sustainable solution, which doesn’t seem to be what is being offered.”

    Most western countries seem to find an entirely elected parliament sustainable.  Apart from the UK, I think the only exception is Canada.

  • tim

    Champions League winners since Sky.

    Spain 7
    Italy 5
    England 3

    Best in the world
    Best in the world
    Best in the world
    Best in the world
    Best in the world
    Best in the world

    Thats what the plastic patriots chant isn’t it?

  • Anonymous

    That may be, but we were talking about consensus there isnt one in the United Kingdom, partial or absolute, you cant ignore that just as you believe an elected upper house is better. A deal without long term consensus will unravel and become unworkable.

  • http://twitter.com/JamesKelly James Kelly

    My point is there doesn’t need to be absolute consensus.  There just needs to be political will – pushing for democracy against a recalcitrant minority is hardly an unreasonable thing to do.

  • Anonymous

     Will it necessarily affect you as an author?

    It might not be legal to restrict publishing deals to one territory, but wouldn’t it increase competition over ‘worldwide’ publishing deals? Or would it just give the publishing trade carte blanche to try and undercut each other in opposing territories, based on the labour costs or printing and distributing hard copies?

  • Anonymous

    Yes and as I said there isnt partial consensus on what what people want, wholly elected, hybrid, appointed. The majority wants a democracy that works, to argue that a wholly elected upper chamber would work in practice any better than a hybrid or appointed chamber is hubris. If there really was a majority for an elected Lords great, but there clearly isnt as we stand. 

  • http://tomknoxbooks.com SeanT

    Semifinalists? UEFA rankings? Money earned? Global appeal? Consistent clubs? Over what period?

    You are boring, bigoted – and now frankly embarrassing. Why the inane repetition? Is it means to be some football chant and thereby cutting satire? Hint: it isn’t.

    Do something useful, go get yourself some workfare at Tesco. This particular “argument” has been euthanised.

  • http://twitter.com/JamesKelly James Kelly

    “The majority wants a democracy that works”

    Until we have an elected parliament, we don’t have any sort of democracy (other than a partial one).  As for whether it “works”, I dare say it works for those who agree with the views represented in the unrepresentative House of Lords.

  • Anonymous

    A few years back I was the chairman of the Spurs Supporters Trust. Part of this involved going to meet with Daniel Levy and other officials at the club. They were all very concerned about selling TV rights individually as their view was (and probably still is) that the only teams this would benefit in England would be Man Utd and possibly Liverpool. The other sides have much smaller supports in the UK and would not get as much by selling individually as they would through doing it collectively. In their view, after Utd and Liverpool the next three were Arsenal, Spurs and Everton, with Newcastle, City, Chelsea and West Ham in the next tranche.

    Essentially, Man Utd subsidises the rest of the Premier League. But it makes sense if you think about it. For it to be interesting for Utd fans – and, therefore, good commercially - there have to be other strong sides.

    What may well change, though, is the sale of foreign rights. I think Liverpool were pushing for this a while back. Liverpool’s problem, however, is brabnd loyalty outside England is much less strong than inside. A couple more years without CL football and Liverpool’s support in Asia could well collapse dramatically. 

  • Anonymous

    Why not take finalists in the Champions league over the last ten years though:

    Germany:2
    Spain:4
    Italy:5
    France:1
    Portugal:1
    England:7

    Which is rather a different picture innit….

  • Anonymous

    In Spain, well over 50% of the football-interested population support either Real or Barca. Even Man Utd probably do not exceed 10% of football support over here though.

  • tim

    Time don the sunglasses and baseball cap Willie.

    Hague joins rally against NHS cuts

    http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/politics/4150423/Hague-joins-rally-against-NHS-cuts.html

  • Anonymous

    If you feel we dont have a democracy due to the Lords, thats your opinion of what democracy means with which I dont agree.   

  • tim

    And here’s some classic footage of Dave speaking at a “Trade Union Rally” of junior doctors promising “No more top down reorganisations”

    http://sturdyblog.wordpress.com/2012/02/24/shame-on-you-david-cameron/

  • http://twitter.com/JamesKelly James Kelly

    “thats your opinion of what democracy means with which I dont agree ”

    You disagree that democracy isn’t an elected parliament?

    If the US, for instance, replaced direct elections to the Senate with a mixture of appointment and heredity, that wouldn’t have any impact on that country’s democratic credentials?

  • tim

    Yes, that proves Colin Montgomerie was the best golfer in Europe.

  • Anonymous

    Talking of football, this is the annual Arsenal wage bill:

    http://arsenaltruth.squarespace.com/

    Extraordinary!

  • Anonymous

    If the senate had greatly reduced powers which basically meant it was just another committee of congress that ensured a higher level of detailed legislative scrutiny then no, in some ways may enhance it. Democracy is a broad concept. If a country with universal direct democracy was replaced with a system of a representative assembly that wouldn’t have any impact on its democratic credentials?

  • Anonymous

    I believe you will find plenty of commentators who disagree with your comments.

    It is hard to predict what would have happened under Labour whether worse or better.   Certainly growth would probably have been higher but less effort to tackle the debt through cuts and taxation.   What the net result would have been I dont know.

    Of course better growth is the other way to tackle the debts and as we know the coalition talk about this quite a bit but as yet have not turned it into a reality.

    Perhaps in 10 years time we will be able to look back and see whether Obama or Cameron had the better economic policy.

  • Anonymous

    “…the 1951-64 and 1970-74 Tory governments were to the left of New Labour.”

    Not all of them!

    “… the successful rolling back of the state under Winston Churchill’s post-war administration in the 1950s. This government took a heavily socialised economy in which people were eating whale meat and in which bread had been rationed for the first time three years after the end of World War II and left a situation where ‘most of our people have never had it so good’.

    It is clear from the memoirs of R. A. Butler, who was Chancellor of the Exchequer throughout much of this period (he subsequently became Lord Butler), that he understood the importance of low taxes and deregulation as a means of triggering a virtuous circle of enhanced growth. ”

    http://www.iea.org.uk/publications/research/sharper-axes-lower-taxes

  • Anonymous

    To be honest it doesn’t prove anything, but then neither did your ‘stat pulled from arse’. Which was the point.

  • Anonymous

    Then he saw the books..the accounts books..the real ones..

  • Anonymous

    And to Winston Churchill, Eden, Macmillan and Home!

  • Plato

    Saw this and did smile #iMogg

    http://ow.ly/i/tyYu/original

  • http://twitter.com/JamesKelly James Kelly

    “If the senate had greatly reduced powers which basically meant it was just another committee of congress that ensured a higher level of detailed legislative scrutiny then no, in some ways may enhance it.”

    If that’s all the House of Lords is, why does David Herdson speak with such certainty that if the Commons doesn’t kill Lords reform, the Lords will?  That isn’t what a “scrutinising committee” does.

    “If a country with universal direct democracy was replaced with a system of a representative assembly that wouldn’t have any impact on its democratic credentials?”

    Because the people who make decisions are directly elected.  Where is the democratic chain of accountability for the Lords?

  • Anonymous

     Sorry, that is not true. The two have been treated the same but in the USA there is no threat of torture except in Guantanamo.

    This ‘businessman’ was someone accused of smuggling high tech batteries used in weapons to a potential enemy. He did it for personal gain. The  UK courts have looked at the evidence as has the ECHR and found no reason for the extradition not to go ahead.

    The problem lies in the extreme interpretation of the ECHR on torture. An absurd interpretation extending the convention beyond its appropriate and original boundaries.

  • Socrates

    I suspect that’s a lot lower than the other top five team.

    It also shows the big risk of going into football. If you get into the reserves at a team as good as Arsenal but never really make it beyond that, you’ll get a salary of £50k for a few years, and then you have to go into another job, but without a university education. No wonder so many pros come from rough estates.

  • MrsB

    what, all of us?

  • Anonymous

    One MP has said Gillard needs to stop Rudd getting more than 27 MPs. If he gets 40 then Gillard is a dead woman walking, even if she survives for a temporary reprieve the expected Labor trouncing in Rudd’s Queensland will soon put the pressure back on!

  • Frederick James

    I thought it was “drosophila”…

  • Anonymous

    On social issues yes, but not economic issues. 60 years ago, in 1952, Eisenhower, a moderate Republican was president, and the top rate of tax was 92%! The key welfare liberalism of LBJ would still wait ten years, but Obama is not really that different on the economic front to Ike!

  • Anonymous

    Firstly even if the Lords kills it which yes for a time it could, (which is one of its effective powers of scrutiny), but the Commons is supreme and can use the Parliament act to push through its democratic will. Which when you remember that small detail does mean the Lords is a scrutinising committee and an effective one.  The Lords has democratic overrule which means it keeps to its job well of enhancing the legislation of the democratic commons.

  • Richard Tyndall

    Did the UK courts look at the evidence? My understanding is that the High court decision only looked at whether the accusations of entrapment were sufficient to overturn the extradition request. As with previous disputed cases both of extradition to the US and with the EAW, there is no requirement for British courts to actually decide whether there is sufficient evidence nor even a case to answer. They simply have to decide if there are any extraordinary resons why extradition should not go ahead. 

  • http://twitter.com/JamesKelly James Kelly

    “Firstly even if the Lords kills it which yes for a time it could, which is one of its effective powers of scrutiny”

    That’s an abuse of the language.  Wrecking a bill is not ‘scrutiny’, although I’m inclined to agree with you that it is highly effective.

  • tim

    Chelsea’s is £172 million
    Man City £174 million.

    Napoli, who are sixth in the Italian league and put out City and are on the verge of putting out Chelsea have a wage bill of 39 million Euros, and a higher percentage of Italian players in their squad than Chelsea or Man City have English players

    Best in the world

  • Anonymous

     Great solution.

    Pique drives the LibDems to sabotage the act they have actively put through parliament which requires fewer MPs -  which was a commitment in their manifesto.

    The LibDems are getting a little like the Labour party, do only what is in the party interest and to hell with the cost to the taxpayer. Spend, spend never end when the party needs or wants.

    Well that is the end of claim of being the party who serves the national interest above party interest.

  • Anonymous

    Probably why the most successful right-wing leaders, eg Churchill, Reagan etc tend to be dreamers, while the most successful left-wing leaders eg Attlee are sometimes rather dull pragmatists!

  • http://awkwardedmilibandmoments.tumblr.com/ Anorak

    “[Napoli has] a higher percentage of Italian players in their squad than Chelsea or Man City.”

    Yes, they’re an Italian team. And?

    EDIT: I see you caught it :)

  • Plato

    Cripes – this sounds like a lot

    RT @harikunzru: Fact of the morning: 845,000 Americans have Top Secret security clearance [Steve Coll in NYRB]

  • Anonymous

    Mitchell Research/Rosetta Stone Michigan

    Mitt Romney 36% {32%} [25%] (31%)
    Rick Santorum 33% {30%} [34%] (15%)
    Ron Paul 12% {7%} [11%] (15%)
    Newt Gingrich 9% {9%} [5%] (16%)
    Undecided 11% {22%} [25%]

  • Anonymous

    Rasmussen Michigan

    Romney 40%
    Santorum 34
    Paul 10
    Newt 9

  • Anonymous

    It’s about £40 million higher than Tottenham’s.

  • Anonymous

    Rasmussen Arizona

    Romney 42
    Santorum 29

  • MrsB

    Hey – yellow submarine is back!

    Hooray!

    As for you, HD2, you are daft as a brush.  But at least you aren’t aggressively unpleasant

  • Nick Palmer

    Think I’ve told the story before here, but FWIW: I was initially influenced by my father when I was six – he was a Tory but gave me what seemed to be a neutral run-down of the main principles of every political philosophy from fascism to communism, and politely enquired which I liked. I said communism sounded good (from each according to ability, to each according to need) – he paused fractionally, then said, “Ah, yes, many people would agree with you.” “But not you?” “No, actually I’m a conservative, but you mustn’t let that influence you.”

    The lasting effect of that curious exchange was to infect me with the idea of tolerance: as in all my dealings with my parents, I really liked them letting me explore ideas for myself. I eventually worked out that communism didn’t seem to work well in practice, not least because of the absence of the tolerance that he was practising, and I’m sure it would have been counter-productive if he’d said “Stupid boy!” My social democratic preference as an adult was a blend of the initial impulse (I still think that’s the way to try to live) and a recognition that it’s important to have systems that actually work (growing up in Denmark was persuasive on that point).

  • Anonymous

    be careful passing on info like that plato . you could end up on a extradition warrant

  • Tissue Price

    You have told it before, Nick, but I like that story.

    If I’m reading it right, it means that I have to pretend to my little boy that I’m actually some sort of lefty.

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/VGEDM47IXSDSJV2G7CNMMV2HTE Iain

    No!

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/VGEDM47IXSDSJV2G7CNMMV2HTE Iain

    The benefits of democracy are not self evident if you are part of the ruling class or elite! I see a few Tories here who are afflicted with that view of the world as well!