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Welcome to Thursday in the PB NightHawks Cafe

February 23rd, 2012

Welcome again to PB’s overnight open thread

I’m pretty tired after staying up late to watch last night’s GOP debate in Arizona so I’ll be going to bed early.

Unlike most Thursdays I don’t think that there any council by-elections tonight – but we do have Question Time on BBC1.

Have a good night.

@MikeSmithsonOGH




  • Neil

    I dont disagree with that one bit. I just think fitalass can disagree with your original assertion without having to be accused of not understanding the position. I think it’s far more likely that she understands .. but disagrees.

  • Anonymous

    Neil, over last five years I only know of four direct cases where friends contacted a politician over an issue they felt strongly about, or effected them directly. I contacted Sir Robert Smith over the Lisbon referendum vote. Another contacted Malcolm Bruce over an issue involving a redundecy problem with a local employer. And the other two, well they contacted Danny Alexander over tax credit issues. I have yet to hear of anyone I know contact their MSP over any issue.

    Now, if you want to list the issues or bandwagons that all our politicians local, at Holyrood or Westminster have jumped on, fair enough. Protecting midwifery service at the local cottage hospital springs to mind. Sadly, we often only hear about what devolved powers our MSP’s are responsible for when it comes to stinging criticism or closure of a local amenity. The national and the Scottish media are not that great at differentiating between the two.

    Interestingly tonight, BBC Scotland gave a very frank and honest description of the Eric Joyce story where their Westminster counterparts danced around the wooly alledged ‘brawl’ etc. Rather amusingly, they also pointed out the lengthy time he was detained while pointing out that the Scottish legal was very different. And with the inference such an incident would have then been processed far quicker up here. Now, some could have interprated that to mean that we are much more efficient at processing this sort of incident. I couldn’t possible comment.

  • MickP0rk

     “an issue they felt strongly about, or effected them directly. I contacted Sir Robert Smith over the Lisbon referendum vote.”

    Said without even a flicker of irony or self awareness.

    Priceless.

  • Anonymous

    That would have been fair enough, but for her to turn that into one of her many anti-SNP rants, when that was nothing to do with the point I was making in my post is one of the reasons I post less  here than I used to.

    There are intelligent people on here that I enjoy discussing things with, or merely enjoying their erudition.

    Knee jerk partisan rants are tiresome.

  • Neil

    I miss Seth too ;)

  • Anonymous

     Many thanks Neil.

  • MickP0rk

     So does Lansley.

    Log’s prediction that he would be PM is looking about as clever as the rest of his amusing guff.
    ;)

  • Anonymous

    The fact that Seth was frequently wrong, shouldn’t hide the fact that he was a witty contributor to this site, who constructed good arguments, and whose posts were worth reading.

  • TubOfLard

    I like that fact.

    I can go to bed in the knowledge that currently the U.K actually has 779 M.Ps ( not counting those in the Wales and N.I assemblies) and that of those, 181 of them are Scottish.

    Alright, there may be more travelling time for a Scottish Westminster M.P (probably less though so for one with a Glasgow or Edinburgh Constituency than a northern rural English one), but still more time for some ( Mr Joyce for example) to sit in the HoC’s bars drinking large quantities of subsidised ale.

  • Anonymous

    Now that Labour are out of office, there are also fewer posts to go around, so more of them are backbenchers with time on their hands.

    To be fair, some of them are conscientious souls who involve themselves with particular causes and do a lot of work in their interests. In my original post, I should probably have said that backbench MPs from Scotland  don’t have much of an essential workload, other than turning up to vote the party line on the governance of England.

  • Anonymous

    ‘If you don’t understand the situation, you would have been well advised to have gone to your bed, rather than comment further.

    That you don’t like devolution is well known. That you spout about it can be tiresome.’

    The hubris and arrogance of your post will keep me warm, no need for a hot water bottle or a reality check on my intelligence levels as a local political anorack or activist in my area. I understand devolution perfectly well, and how it works or not, as is sometimes the case. My only crime on this site, or elsewhere on the Scottish blogsphere appears to be because I dare to be a dissenting voice against the Scottish Nationalist cause. And also because I dare to criticise our Dear Leader the FM and his representives on earth. I mean, such is their standing now in Scotland, it would be almost disrespectful to regard them as well, just politicians like those of every other party with the same aims.

    Here is a thought, you regard my opinions or contribution on this site tiresome for no other reason that I disagree with you. And yet I still represent the majority view on Independence in Scotland in the Polls. And despite the fact that I am also one of the rapidly decreasing non Nat, pro Union voices in Scotland who posts here. Now, the Nat voice here is rapidly increasing, and almost to a man they are virulantly opposed to other Scots opinions here who disagree with them. Absolutely bank on them to play the lad/lassie or their intelligence as a result in an attempt to undermine them and drown out their message. Hope you don’t win.

  • MickP0rk

     <i."shouldn't hide the fact that he was a witty contributor to this site,
    who constructed good arguments, and whose posts were worth reading."

    Nor should it hide the fact that his partisan behavior frequently veered into snide personal abuse much like Neil and fitalalss and the rest of the herd.

    I simply have no more tolerance for turning the other cheek to such behaviour since the censors brought the hammer down.

    When herd partisan behaviour gets responded to robustly it results in squeals of outrage. But the herd, who almost always instigate it, are rarely if ever reprimanded and prefer to characterise such responses as “rude” and “impolite” behaviour. (but not on the part of the instigators of course)

    Presumably because they are so used to unquestioning acceptance of their viewpoint on here.

    I make points on many issues and they certainly don’t need to be only from an SNP standpoint. It may be unfortunate that I get drawn into the partisanship on here, but like I said, after the ban there’s little point being delicate or aloof around here any more.

    I look in on other sites including the likes of UKP on occassion and there is usually a fairly interesting back and forth. Dry but unquestionably illuminating on occasion.

    That isn’t here and it never was.
    I welcome the fact that there are more SNP posters on here unafraid to speak out as the sterility of herd monothought was becoming far more tedious than inevitable robust exchanges.

  • Anonymous

    Of course, you hope I don’t win – just as I hope you don’t win.

    That is what politics is all about. 

    On this site, you are in the warm furry blanket of lots of people who agree with you and say “Yes, dear”. To complain on here that you are part of a victimised minority seems a tad strange to say the least.

    Most of us are in the position of being part of the majority on some issues, and in minorities on others. That’s perfectly normal.

  • Anonymous

    ‘Knee jerk partisan rants are tiresome (unless they are funny, of course!).’

    Oldnat – ‘Of course, he doesn’t need to be anywhere the HoC. Backbenchers from Scotland don’t really have much of a workload, as MSPs handle much of what will fill an English MP’s postbag.’

    Not once tonight have you linked to any factual evidence to back up your rather arrogant assertions. Heavy on partisan crap, light on actually evidence. But hey, don’t worry, I won’t ask you to get an intelligence test when it comes to partisan spiv spinning.

    Right folks, really off to bed. Absolutely loved the BBC drama Call the Midwife, currently enjoying the books. But don’t tell anyone that I am reading books about a story in London in case I am accused of being anti Scottish because I didn’t find a great story about Glasgow instead!

  • Anonymous

    You do realise that because we disagree on a matter of minor importance that this could be blown up into “Major SNP Split”? :-)

  • Anonymous

    Precisely what was it that you didn’t understand in my post above -

    “Naturally, you contact an MP about a reserved issue, and an MSP about a devolved issue.

    If you lived in England, you would contact your MP only. An MP in England has to do the work of both a Scottish MP and the MSP.

    The Scottish MP has a lower constituency case load, than an English MP.”

  • MickP0rk

    “To complain on here that you are part of a victimised minority”

    Is her most common underhand tactic and we know it is.

    We certainly aren’t fooled by her crass passive aggressive posturing and nor are most people if they were honest.

    I have a certain admiration for posters like flockers who can at least cloak their Cameroonian spin with a modicum of erudition and positioning that isn’t overt.

    But the in your face bluntness of the Cameroonian spinning from the likes of fitalass and some of her closest herd friends is incredibly crude and it would take quite some effort and willpower not to see it.

    Even Nabavi and Herdson can at least provide a countervailing point of view and evidence from which their Cameroonian spin can be poured out, it’s still hardly subtle but it does have something behind it.

  • MickP0rk

    Ah but if the herd were actually perceptive they would realise there are many points of contention between the SNP posters on here which have been quite openly displayed at times even if they soared over the heads of the herd.

    There is however no gaping chasm in the SNP like euroscepticism or the Blair Brown feuds which is probably what upsets the English press the most.

    Divide and rule simply ain’t going to work and it served the establishment so well in the past. ;^)

  • Anonymous

    I presume that she was hugely disconcerted when Cameron said he would “consider” devolving further powers if Scots voted No to independence – before she realised that he had no intention of actually delivering on that.

    Incidentally, did you note that when Cameron made his speech – carefully positioned so that Edinburgh Castle was dominant behind him – that he did so behind a lectern displaying the English coat of arms? That’s perfectly proper when visiting a foreign country, but disrespectful to Scotland, where the Scottish coat of arms as used by the Scotland Office should have been used.

    A trivial point, of course, but one which suggests that he has little clue as to Scottish protocol, and that Michael Moore didn’t have either the knowledge, wit or temerity to point out to him.

  • Anonymous

    Nytol

  • MickP0rk

     I picture her discombobulation much as Ruth Davidsons was.
    The spin now of course is that there is no disagreement and they are one in deed and thought. Cameron does something she thinks it was the right thing to do all along.

    You have a far sharper eye for lectern nuance than I but as you say Moore or one of Cameron’s little helpers in the scottish office should have spotted that. Symptomatic.

    However, more than one news report did says it looked a little like a PM visiting a foreign land presumably because it was a pithy way of putting it in light of the referndum but many a true word etc.

    I honestly don’t think he thought through what his intervention would mean or tory headquarters and SCON have nobody capable of looking at past history to see what happened in 1979 and warn him.

    It also has the amusing side effect of painting SLAB and the SLD as merely following in Cameron’s footsteps when they prevaricate about more powers. I bet they didn’t want that albatross around their necks.

  • http://www.youtube.com/ajs41#p/p Andy JS

    BBC News is reporting that Kevin Rudd will contest the Labor leadership election on Monday. So Australia’s first female PM could be out of office within about 96 hours or so.

  • Richard Howell

    I don’t see why. Per Lord Phillips of Worth Matravers PSC in R v Chaytor & Others [2010] UKSC 52 at [18] inter alia:

    ‘Privilege did not attach to criminal conduct within the House which was not connected to the activities of the House. Such conduct could be described as “ordinary criminal conduct”. This covered such criminal offences as an assault in the corridors of the House, theft of another Member’s money, or a sexual offence, none of which related to parliamentary activity or proceedings in Parliament.

  • MickP0rk

    I’m just reporting what has been said on news reports.
    He was not grabbed straight away and the plods were reluctant by most accounts with parliamentary privilege being mentioned as their reasoning.

    I suspect the plods trying to stop an ongoing barfight may not have known every aspect of Hansard convention or the legal precedents or indeed had the time to look them up.

  • Richard Howell

    True. On the other hand, one might hope that if constables apprehended the use of unlawful violence they might try to restore the Queen’s Peace immediately rather than worrying about Parliamentary Privilege.

  • MickP0rk

    Well according to the reports their hesitancy was allegedly rewarded by him lashing out even more and doing the very opposite of “going quietly”.

    You would think a barman, regardless of venue, would also know his job enough to yell out to reluctant plods what to do.
    It’s quite likely he at least did. In very pithy and blunt terms that would never see the light of day in Hansard. ;^)

  • http://www.biologymad.com/ HD2

     Abortions based on the gender of the foetus are specifically banned under the Abortion Act (look it up!)

  • http://www.biologymad.com/ HD2

     kle:
    The deficit IS falling, though….
    And look just over the Channel for the problems other nations are having.

    Compared to them, we’re doing well, and average annual growth rates at ~1% is what we’re going to have to live with for most of the rest of this century.

    Slowly, slowly, slowly, that message is penetrating politicians’ brains.
    The public realised that many months ago (say, early 2010).

    The adenoidal Android is unelectable – period.

  • http://www.biologymad.com/ HD2

     Decimal point waaaay out – try 7.5.

  • http://twitter.com/JamesKelly James Kelly

    “Obviously I’m aware that if Scots bristle at having their hard-won Parliament mentioned in the same breath as City Hall in London, then they’ll be positively apoplectic at it being considered alongside the future guiding forces of, say, Coventry or Wakefield. Still, that’s precisely what I’m about to do. Dinnae shoot me.”

    No-one needs to shoot him, because it’s a demonstrably silly comparison.  The Scottish Parliament has primary legislative powers, and the power to vary income tax.  The GLA is essentially a local authority, with a couple of minor tacked-on powers devolved from central government.